On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 07:40:21 GMT, Woofbert
<woofbert.spam[at]infernosoft.com> wrote:

>In article <oqffgv0pphgq6836cp1ma69r0a34glmstv[at]4ax.com>,
> foo <foo[at]bar.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 06 Jul 2003 06:06:14 GMT, Woofbert
>> <woofbert.spam[at]infernosoft.com> wrote:
>>
>> >In article <nohegvcrai7btciuta5vvnm6qd10gv0c48[at]4ax.com>,
>> > Josiah Fizer <jfizer[at]classy.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Sat, 05 Jul 2003 21:33:35 GMT, foo <foo[at]bar.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >On Sat, 05 Jul 2003 07:24:13 GMT, Woofbert
>> >> ><woofbert.spam[at]infernosoft.com> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >>In article <foo-BF25C0.00190305072003[at]nnrp06.earthlink.net>,
>> >> >> foo <foo[at]bar.com> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> > "The" church? Which one? Plenty of people have been raised in "the"
>> >> >>> > church who disagree with you.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> If you'll read the Bible, it's pretty clear about what is acceptable
>> >> >>> and what isn't. In this case, homosexuality isn't. If you don't
>> >> >>> follow that, that's up to you, but for one to pretend to be shocked
>> >> >>> when those who do express an opinion is a bit silly.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>Not all people who read the Bible agree with you.
>> >> >
>> >> >Granted; some people have their own interpretations that are off in
>> >> >the wild blue yonder, but if you read it and look at the words, it's
>> >> >blatently clear that homosexuality isn't favored - and is viewed very
>> >> >badly.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> Of course its absolutely impossible that YOUR interpretation could be
>> >> wrong right? I mean, its
>>
>> Josiah talks here about 'tolerance'. The Bible isn't about tolerance.
>> It says if you don't follow XYZ, you go to Hell. Another poster
>> (Tim, I believe) replied that I must have been thinking of Dante's
>> Hell, and he was quickly corrected by myself and another poster with
>> half a dozen verses stating Hell was eternal. Then there's the kosher
>> food bit. Let's just say Biblical knowledge around here isn't high at
>> all.
>>
>> >Wht, are you nuts? Foo is absolutely certain in his belief, and nothing
>> >will shake it. He has admitted the existence of peopel who interpret the
>> >Bible differently than he does, but has already poisoned all mention of
>> >them by calling them crazy.
>>
>> I've asked how one could possibly misinterpret something so clear, and
>> provided a reference of the Bible's take on homosexuality. So far
>> I've had no takers in challenging what it says and possible
>> (mis)interpretations. Would you like to try? Only if you completely
>> change what words mean could you misinterpret what it says.
>
>The words have been completely changed to begin with. There is a lot of
>disagreement about what certain words in the original texts were talking
>about. And for the few remaining proscriptions that are more or less
>clear, there are dozens of proscriptions about other things that are no
>longer taken seriously even by people who call themselves Christian.
>
>Why don't you tell me what Jesus said about homosexuality?

I've repeatedly asked you for this; it seems odd you'd have to depend
on me to find the chapter and verse for you. If you know it, post it.

>And explain to me why you don't keep kosher.

Already covered - once by me and once by the Mayor. We've read the
NT. You should read it sometime.

>> >He is certain that his choice of which passages of the Old Testament to
>> >follow and which to ignore is correct.
>>
>> This sniping is weak. Form an argument and write it out to me, rather
>> than sniping with Josiah.
>
>If you had a wife, would you let her attend church during her period? If
>she went anyway, would you stone her?

My answers haven't changed, no matter how you rephrase the same
question.

>> >He's certain he knows what Jesus
>> >said about homosexuality, and could probably quote chapter and verse at
>> >us about it.
>>
>> Please inform us all of what was said. I eagerly await your reply.
>
>You're the expert. I'm not. You tell me what Jesus said about
>homosexuality.

You keep bringing up the question, so you tell me.

In article <v8slgv0b5sube0t976f7iogunlthq5q725[at]4ax.com>,
foo <foo[at]bar.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 07:40:21 GMT, Woofbert
> <woofbert.spam[at]infernosoft.com> wrote:
>
> >In article <oqffgv0pphgq6836cp1ma69r0a34glmstv[at]4ax.com>,
> > foo <foo[at]bar.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Sun, 06 Jul 2003 06:06:14 GMT, Woofbert
> >> <woofbert.spam[at]infernosoft.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >In article <nohegvcrai7btciuta5vvnm6qd10gv0c48[at]4ax.com>,
> >> > Josiah Fizer <jfizer[at]classy.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> On Sat, 05 Jul 2003 21:33:35 GMT, foo <foo[at]bar.com> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >On Sat, 05 Jul 2003 07:24:13 GMT, Woofbert
> >> >> ><woofbert.spam[at]infernosoft.com> wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >>In article <foo-BF25C0.00190305072003[at]nnrp06.earthlink.net>,
> >> >> >> foo <foo[at]bar.com> wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>> > "The" church? Which one? Plenty of people have been raised in
> >> >> >>> > "the"
> >> >> >>> > church who disagree with you.
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> If you'll read the Bible, it's pretty clear about what is
> >> >> >>> acceptable
> >> >> >>> and what isn't. In this case, homosexuality isn't. If you don't
> >> >> >>> follow that, that's up to you, but for one to pretend to be shocked
> >> >> >>> when those who do express an opinion is a bit silly.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>Not all people who read the Bible agree with you.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Granted; some people have their own interpretations that are off in
> >> >> >the wild blue yonder, but if you read it and look at the words, it's
> >> >> >blatently clear that homosexuality isn't favored - and is viewed very
> >> >> >badly.
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> Of course its absolutely impossible that YOUR interpretation could be
> >> >> wrong right? I mean, its
> >>
> >> Josiah talks here about 'tolerance'. The Bible isn't about tolerance.
> >> It says if you don't follow XYZ, you go to Hell. Another poster
> >> (Tim, I believe) replied that I must have been thinking of Dante's
> >> Hell, and he was quickly corrected by myself and another poster with
> >> half a dozen verses stating Hell was eternal. Then there's the kosher
> >> food bit. Let's just say Biblical knowledge around here isn't high at
> >> all.
> >>
> >> >Wht, are you nuts? Foo is absolutely certain in his belief, and nothing
> >> >will shake it. He has admitted the existence of peopel who interpret the
> >> >Bible differently than he does, but has already poisoned all mention of
> >> >them by calling them crazy.
> >>
> >> I've asked how one could possibly misinterpret something so clear, and
> >> provided a reference of the Bible's take on homosexuality. So far
> >> I've had no takers in challenging what it says and possible
> >> (mis)interpretations. Would you like to try? Only if you completely
> >> change what words mean could you misinterpret what it says.
> >
> >The words have been completely changed to begin with. There is a lot of
> >disagreement about what certain words in the original texts were talking
> >about. And for the few remaining proscriptions that are more or less
> >clear, there are dozens of proscriptions about other things that are no
> >longer taken seriously even by people who call themselves Christian.
> >
> >Why don't you tell me what Jesus said about homosexuality?
>
> I've repeatedly asked you for this; it seems odd you'd have to depend
> on me to find the chapter and verse for you. If you know it, post it.

You're the one proposing a Christian basis for homophobia and that the
Old testament is no longer as important for modern Christians as what
Jesus said. So it is up to you to provide some quotation of what Jesus
said.

However, Jesus never said anything about gay people. (Paul did, but I
believe that Paul was not Jesus.) Of course, I may be mistaken in my
assertion, and it would only take some counterexamples to disprove me.


> >And explain to me why you don't keep kosher.
>
> Already covered - once by me and once by the Mayor. We've read the
> NT. You should read it sometime.

IOW, you can't give me a clear answer and you basically pick and choose
the passages you like.

> >> >He is certain that his choice of which passages of the Old Testament to
> >> >follow and which to ignore is correct.
> >>
> >> This sniping is weak. Form an argument and write it out to me, rather
> >> than sniping with Josiah.
> >
> >If you had a wife, would you let her attend church during her period? If
> >she went anyway, would you stone her?
>
> My answers haven't changed, no matter how you rephrase the same
> question.

So you would not stone her for attending church. In that case, you are
wrong to believe that homoseuxality is also proscribed.

> >> >He's certain he knows what Jesus
> >> >said about homosexuality, and could probably quote chapter and verse at
> >> >us about it.
> >>
> >> Please inform us all of what was said. I eagerly await your reply.
> >
> >You're the expert. I'm not. You tell me what Jesus said about
> >homosexuality.
>
> You keep bringing up the question, so you tell me.

Nothing. That's what. Jesus said nothing about homosexuals.

--
Woofbert, Chief Rocket Surgeon, Infernosoft
Woofbert's Law on Learning Linux: When attempting to learn Linux,
study it thoroughly before you begin.

On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 17:01:13 GMT, Woofbert
<woofbert.spam[at]infernosoft.com> wrote:

>In article <v8slgv0b5sube0t976f7iogunlthq5q725[at]4ax.com>,
> foo <foo[at]bar.com> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 07:40:21 GMT, Woofbert
>> <woofbert.spam[at]infernosoft.com> wrote:
>>
>> >In article <oqffgv0pphgq6836cp1ma69r0a34glmstv[at]4ax.com>,
>> > foo <foo[at]bar.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Sun, 06 Jul 2003 06:06:14 GMT, Woofbert
>> >> <woofbert.spam[at]infernosoft.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >In article <nohegvcrai7btciuta5vvnm6qd10gv0c48[at]4ax.com>,
>> >> > Josiah Fizer <jfizer[at]classy.com> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> On Sat, 05 Jul 2003 21:33:35 GMT, foo <foo[at]bar.com> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >On Sat, 05 Jul 2003 07:24:13 GMT, Woofbert
>> >> >> ><woofbert.spam[at]infernosoft.com> wrote:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >>In article <foo-BF25C0.00190305072003[at]nnrp06.earthlink.net>,
>> >> >> >> foo <foo[at]bar.com> wrote:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>> > "The" church? Which one? Plenty of people have been raised in
>> >> >> >>> > "the"
>> >> >> >>> > church who disagree with you.
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> If you'll read the Bible, it's pretty clear about what is
>> >> >> >>> acceptable
>> >> >> >>> and what isn't. In this case, homosexuality isn't. If you don't
>> >> >> >>> follow that, that's up to you, but for one to pretend to be shocked
>> >> >> >>> when those who do express an opinion is a bit silly.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>Not all people who read the Bible agree with you.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >Granted; some people have their own interpretations that are off in
>> >> >> >the wild blue yonder, but if you read it and look at the words, it's
>> >> >> >blatently clear that homosexuality isn't favored - and is viewed very
>> >> >> >badly.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Of course its absolutely impossible that YOUR interpretation could be
>> >> >> wrong right? I mean, its
>> >>
>> >> Josiah talks here about 'tolerance'. The Bible isn't about tolerance.
>> >> It says if you don't follow XYZ, you go to Hell. Another poster
>> >> (Tim, I believe) replied that I must have been thinking of Dante's
>> >> Hell, and he was quickly corrected by myself and another poster with
>> >> half a dozen verses stating Hell was eternal. Then there's the kosher
>> >> food bit. Let's just say Biblical knowledge around here isn't high at
>> >> all.
>> >>
>> >> >Wht, are you nuts? Foo is absolutely certain in his belief, and nothing
>> >> >will shake it. He has admitted the existence of peopel who interpret the
>> >> >Bible differently than he does, but has already poisoned all mention of
>> >> >them by calling them crazy.
>> >>
>> >> I've asked how one could possibly misinterpret something so clear, and
>> >> provided a reference of the Bible's take on homosexuality. So far
>> >> I've had no takers in challenging what it says and possible
>> >> (mis)interpretations. Would you like to try? Only if you completely
>> >> change what words mean could you misinterpret what it says.
>> >
>> >The words have been completely changed to begin with. There is a lot of
>> >disagreement about what certain words in the original texts were talking
>> >about. And for the few remaining proscriptions that are more or less
>> >clear, there are dozens of proscriptions about other things that are no
>> >longer taken seriously even by people who call themselves Christian.
>> >
>> >Why don't you tell me what Jesus said about homosexuality?
>>
>> I've repeatedly asked you for this; it seems odd you'd have to depend
>> on me to find the chapter and verse for you. If you know it, post it.
>
>You're the one proposing a Christian basis for homophobia and that the
>Old testament is no longer as important for modern Christians as what
>Jesus said. So it is up to you to provide some quotation of what Jesus
>said.

No, it isn't "up to me" - you made the claim, so post the words.

>However, Jesus never said anything about gay people. (Paul did, but I
>believe that Paul was not Jesus.) Of course, I may be mistaken in my
>assertion, and it would only take some counterexamples to disprove me.

I don't suggest anything on the topic.

>> >And explain to me why you don't keep kosher.
>>
>> Already covered - once by me and once by the Mayor. We've read the
>> NT. You should read it sometime.
>
>IOW, you can't give me a clear answer and you basically pick and choose
>the passages you like.

No, I've already answered clearly. The fact that you don't understand
the differences in the OT and the NT is unfortunate, but I can't help
that.

>> >> >He is certain that his choice of which passages of the Old Testament to
>> >> >follow and which to ignore is correct.
>> >>
>> >> This sniping is weak. Form an argument and write it out to me, rather
>> >> than sniping with Josiah.
>> >
>> >If you had a wife, would you let her attend church during her period? If
>> >she went anyway, would you stone her?
>>
>> My answers haven't changed, no matter how you rephrase the same
>> question.
>
>So you would not stone her for attending church. In that case, you are
>wrong to believe that homoseuxality is also proscribed.

If you want to argue the OT, find a Jew. My answers aren't changing.

>> >> >He's certain he knows what Jesus
>> >> >said about homosexuality, and could probably quote chapter and verse at
>> >> >us about it.
>> >>
>> >> Please inform us all of what was said. I eagerly await your reply.
>> >
>> >You're the expert. I'm not. You tell me what Jesus said about
>> >homosexuality.
>>
>> You keep bringing up the question, so you tell me.
>
>Nothing. That's what. Jesus said nothing about homosexuals.

So?

In article <u6vlgv8b1n2hrvb12j1lopaae98qaru5u6[at]4ax.com>,
foo <foo[at]bar.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 17:01:13 GMT, Woofbert
> <woofbert.spam[at]infernosoft.com> wrote:
<snip>
> >So you would not stone her for attending church. In that case, you are
> >wrong to believe that homoseuxality is also proscribed.
>
> If you want to argue the OT, find a Jew. My answers aren't changing.

<snip>
> >
> >Nothing. That's what. Jesus said nothing about homosexuals.
>
> So?

You say it's the Bible's claim, but you can't or won't explain how your
choices of what parts of the bible to follow. So I can't accept your
claimed Biblical basis for homophobia.

--
Woofbert, Chief Rocket Surgeon, Infernosoft
Woofbert's Law on Learning Linux: When attempting to learn Linux,
study it thoroughly before you begin.

On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 19:01:46 GMT, Woofbert
<woofbert.spam[at]infernosoft.com> wrote:

>In article <u6vlgv8b1n2hrvb12j1lopaae98qaru5u6[at]4ax.com>,
> foo <foo[at]bar.com> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 17:01:13 GMT, Woofbert
>> <woofbert.spam[at]infernosoft.com> wrote:
><snip>
>> >So you would not stone her for attending church. In that case, you are
>> >wrong to believe that homoseuxality is also proscribed.
>>
>> If you want to argue the OT, find a Jew. My answers aren't changing.
>
><snip>
>> >
>> >Nothing. That's what. Jesus said nothing about homosexuals.
>>
>> So?
>
>You say it's the Bible's claim,

It is.

>but you can't or won't explain how your
>choices of what parts of the bible to follow. So I can't accept your
>claimed Biblical basis for homophobia.

I've already posted where the Bible speaks against homosexuality. Why
didn't you understand it and catch it the first time?

Woofbert <woofbert.spam[at]infernosoft.com> wrote:
<Snip>
> My obvious problem with that is that I'm gay and that the claim that
> the Bible unambiguously opposes homosexuality is offensive.
<Snip>

Why? Its just a book. Why give it credence?

--
Walter It is difficult to get a man to understand something," wrote
Upton Sinclair, "when his salary depends upon his not understanding it."
Walter

In article <1fxwkh9.42s1t1bw5r1N%proto[at]panix.com>,
proto[at]panix.com (Walter Bushell) wrote:

> Woofbert <woofbert.spam[at]infernosoft.com> wrote:
> <Snip>
> > My obvious problem with that is that I'm gay and that the claim that
> > the Bible unambiguously opposes homosexuality is offensive.
> <Snip>
>
> Why? Its just a book. Why give it credence?

It's not the book that I find offensive (or am giving credence) it's the
people making claims about it that they can't back up with their own
lives.

--
Woofbert, Chief Rocket Surgeon, Infernosoft
Woofbert's Law on Learning Linux: When attempting to learn Linux,
study it thoroughly before you begin.