In May, I ordered a Core Criib. In June, Apple sent Core a cease and
desist order, so I canceled my order. John Fraser, the head of the
company sent me an E-mail saying that my money would be refunded. On
June 23, after repeated threats from me, finally he issued a refund
through PayPal. Then, inexplicably, a few hours later, he canceled it.
Since then, nothing. He has not returned my phone calls nor has he
answered any of the e-mails that I have sent him. I had no recourse but
to report him to his local BBB and to call the Minnesota State Attorny a
bout this matter. On his web sitem he says that he has made "other
arrangements" and will be back selling Core computers soon. DON'T BUY
FROM THIS COMPANY.

--
George Graves

On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 00:23:23 GMT, George Graves <gmgraves[at]pacbell.net>
wrote:

>In May, I ordered a Core Criib. In June, Apple sent Core a cease and
>desist order, so I canceled my order. John Fraser, the head of the
>company sent me an E-mail saying that my money would be refunded. On
>June 23, after repeated threats from me, finally he issued a refund
>through PayPal. Then, inexplicably, a few hours later, he canceled it.
>Since then, nothing. He has not returned my phone calls nor has he
>answered any of the e-mails that I have sent him. I had no recourse but
>to report him to his local BBB and to call the Minnesota State Attorny a
>bout this matter. On his web sitem he says that he has made "other
>arrangements" and will be back selling Core computers soon. DON'T BUY
>FROM THIS COMPANY.

Paypal - /shudder.

On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 14:16:25 -0500, Mayor of R'lyeh
<ev515o[at]hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 01:51:06 GMT, foo <foo[at]bar.com> chose to bless us
>with the following wisdom:
>
>>On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 00:23:23 GMT, George Graves <gmgraves[at]pacbell.net>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>In May, I ordered a Core Criib. In June, Apple sent Core a cease and
>>>desist order, so I canceled my order. John Fraser, the head of the
>>>company sent me an E-mail saying that my money would be refunded. On
>>>June 23, after repeated threats from me, finally he issued a refund
>>>through PayPal. Then, inexplicably, a few hours later, he canceled it.
>>>Since then, nothing. He has not returned my phone calls nor has he
>>>answered any of the e-mails that I have sent him. I had no recourse but
>>>to report him to his local BBB and to call the Minnesota State Attorny a
>>>bout this matter. On his web sitem he says that he has made "other
>>>arrangements" and will be back selling Core computers soon. DON'T BUY
>>>FROM THIS COMPANY.
>>
>>Paypal - /shudder.
>
>Has anyone ever figured out what the hell Paypal does that you can't
>already do with more secure means? Why not just use a credit card?

Because most people don't have the ability to process credit cards?


----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

In article <t16mgv888ok6dammqbunhsp107pfnq3j8n[at]4ax.com>,
Mayor of R'lyeh <ev515o[at]hotmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 01:51:06 GMT, foo <foo[at]bar.com> chose to bless us
> with the following wisdom:
>
> >On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 00:23:23 GMT, George Graves <gmgraves[at]pacbell.net>
> >wrote:
> >
> >>In May, I ordered a Core Criib. In June, Apple sent Core a cease and
> >>desist order, so I canceled my order. John Fraser, the head of the
> >>company sent me an E-mail saying that my money would be refunded. On
> >>June 23, after repeated threats from me, finally he issued a refund
> >>through PayPal. Then, inexplicably, a few hours later, he canceled it.
> >>Since then, nothing. He has not returned my phone calls nor has he
> >>answered any of the e-mails that I have sent him. I had no recourse but
> >>to report him to his local BBB and to call the Minnesota State Attorny a
> >>bout this matter. On his web sitem he says that he has made "other
> >>arrangements" and will be back selling Core computers soon. DON'T BUY
> >>FROM THIS COMPANY.
> >
> >Paypal - /shudder.
>
> Has anyone ever figured out what the hell Paypal does that you can't
> already do with more secure means? Why not just use a credit card?

My sentiments exactly. Fraser (who finally contacted me after I
threatened to call the Minnesota BBB and State's Attorny) says that he
didn't cancel my refund, and that it's some glitch with Paypal. He says
he used Paypal because it was easier and cheaper for him that setting up
his own credit-card accounts with Master, Visa, Siscover, and AMX.

--
George Graves

In article <6d7mgv03uqorkq528h5gk4js60sppscrge[at]4ax.com>,
Josiah Fizer <jfizer[at]classy.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 14:16:25 -0500, Mayor of R'lyeh
> <ev515o[at]hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 01:51:06 GMT, foo <foo[at]bar.com> chose to bless us
> >with the following wisdom:
> >
> >>On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 00:23:23 GMT, George Graves <gmgraves[at]pacbell.net>
> >>wrote:
> >>
> >>>In May, I ordered a Core Criib. In June, Apple sent Core a cease and
> >>>desist order, so I canceled my order. John Fraser, the head of the
> >>>company sent me an E-mail saying that my money would be refunded. On
> >>>June 23, after repeated threats from me, finally he issued a refund
> >>>through PayPal. Then, inexplicably, a few hours later, he canceled it.
> >>>Since then, nothing. He has not returned my phone calls nor has he
> >>>answered any of the e-mails that I have sent him. I had no recourse but
> >>>to report him to his local BBB and to call the Minnesota State Attorny a
> >>>bout this matter. On his web sitem he says that he has made "other
> >>>arrangements" and will be back selling Core computers soon. DON'T BUY
> >>>FROM THIS COMPANY.
> >>
> >>Paypal - /shudder.
> >
> >Has anyone ever figured out what the hell Paypal does that you can't
> >already do with more secure means? Why not just use a credit card?
>
> Because most people don't have the ability to process credit cards?

Yep.

--
George Graves

On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 15:38:48 -0500, Mayor of R'lyeh
<ev515o[at]hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 12:38:47 -0700, Josiah Fizer <jfizer[at]classy.com>
>chose to bless us with the following wisdom:
>
>>On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 14:16:25 -0500, Mayor of R'lyeh
>><ev515o[at]hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 01:51:06 GMT, foo <foo[at]bar.com> chose to bless us
>>>with the following wisdom:
>>>
>>>>On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 00:23:23 GMT, George Graves <gmgraves[at]pacbell.net>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>In May, I ordered a Core Criib. In June, Apple sent Core a cease and
>>>>>desist order, so I canceled my order. John Fraser, the head of the
>>>>>company sent me an E-mail saying that my money would be refunded. On
>>>>>June 23, after repeated threats from me, finally he issued a refund
>>>>>through PayPal. Then, inexplicably, a few hours later, he canceled it.
>>>>>Since then, nothing. He has not returned my phone calls nor has he
>>>>>answered any of the e-mails that I have sent him. I had no recourse but
>>>>>to report him to his local BBB and to call the Minnesota State Attorny a
>>>>>bout this matter. On his web sitem he says that he has made "other
>>>>>arrangements" and will be back selling Core computers soon. DON'T BUY
>>>>>FROM THIS COMPANY.
>>>>
>>>>Paypal - /shudder.
>>>
>>>Has anyone ever figured out what the hell Paypal does that you can't
>>>already do with more secure means? Why not just use a credit card?
>>
>>Because most people don't have the ability to process credit cards?
>
>Then get a money order. Why is PayPal better than a money order?

Faster and cheaper - but the inherent lack of security in PP kills the
deal for me. I can't imagine buying with it from someone I don't know
- at least the CC gives plenty of protection against fraud. If I pay
a few more $$$ because of it, no problem.

You are talking about a Mac user. I guess they also innovated stupidity.


"Steve Hanson" <icustomercare[at]usps.com> wrote in message
news:td5mgvg393ra46dv51qnnuhgnsekgmgmvc[at]4ax.com...
> George Graves wrote in
> <gmgraves-36A3CE.17232307072003[at]newssvr14-ext.news.prodigy.com>:
>
> >In May, I ordered a Core Criib. In June, Apple sent Core a cease and
> >desist order, so I canceled my order. John Fraser, the head of the
> >company sent me an E-mail saying that my money would be refunded. On
> >June 23, after repeated threats from me, finally he issued a refund
> >through PayPal. Then, inexplicably, a few hours later, he canceled it.
> >Since then, nothing. He has not returned my phone calls nor has he
> >answered any of the e-mails that I have sent him. I had no recourse but
> >to report him to his local BBB and to call the Minnesota State Attorny a
> >bout this matter. On his web sitem he says that he has made "other
> >arrangements" and will be back selling Core computers soon. DON'T BUY
> >FROM THIS COMPANY.
>
> You are some pathetic sucker. At least you bought it with a credit
> card (right--right?!?) so you shouldn't have any problem getting your
> money back. By the way, what kind of outfit charges you for purchases
> like this before they ship out? This has red flags all over it, you
> should have known better.

In article <t16mgv888ok6dammqbunhsp107pfnq3j8n[at]4ax.com>,
Mayor of R'lyeh <ev515o[at]hotmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 01:51:06 GMT, foo <foo[at]bar.com> chose to bless us
> with the following wisdom:
>
> >On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 00:23:23 GMT, George Graves <gmgraves[at]pacbell.net>
> >wrote:
> >
> >>In May, I ordered a Core Criib. In June, Apple sent Core a cease and
> >>desist order, so I canceled my order. John Fraser, the head of the
> >>company sent me an E-mail saying that my money would be refunded. On
> >>June 23, after repeated threats from me, finally he issued a refund
> >>through PayPal. Then, inexplicably, a few hours later, he canceled it.
> >>Since then, nothing. He has not returned my phone calls nor has he
> >>answered any of the e-mails that I have sent him. I had no recourse but
> >>to report him to his local BBB and to call the Minnesota State Attorny a
> >>bout this matter. On his web sitem he says that he has made "other
> >>arrangements" and will be back selling Core computers soon. DON'T BUY
> >>FROM THIS COMPANY.
> >
> >Paypal - /shudder.
>
> Has anyone ever figured out what the hell Paypal does that you can't
> already do with more secure means? Why not just use a credit card?

Why don't you try to use your credit card to collect payment from items
that you sell on eBay - as just one example.

In article <1tamgvg8m8vcge4imi0orimuql5494rans[at]4ax.com>,
Mayor of R'lyeh <ev515o[at]hotmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 12:38:47 -0700, Josiah Fizer <jfizer[at]classy.com>
> chose to bless us with the following wisdom:
>
> >On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 14:16:25 -0500, Mayor of R'lyeh
> ><ev515o[at]hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 01:51:06 GMT, foo <foo[at]bar.com> chose to bless us
> >>with the following wisdom:
> >>
> >>>On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 00:23:23 GMT, George Graves <gmgraves[at]pacbell.net>
> >>>wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>In May, I ordered a Core Criib. In June, Apple sent Core a cease and
> >>>>desist order, so I canceled my order. John Fraser, the head of the
> >>>>company sent me an E-mail saying that my money would be refunded. On
> >>>>June 23, after repeated threats from me, finally he issued a refund
> >>>>through PayPal. Then, inexplicably, a few hours later, he canceled it.
> >>>>Since then, nothing. He has not returned my phone calls nor has he
> >>>>answered any of the e-mails that I have sent him. I had no recourse but
> >>>>to report him to his local BBB and to call the Minnesota State Attorny a
> >>>>bout this matter. On his web sitem he says that he has made "other
> >>>>arrangements" and will be back selling Core computers soon. DON'T BUY
> >>>>FROM THIS COMPANY.
> >>>
> >>>Paypal - /shudder.
> >>
> >>Has anyone ever figured out what the hell Paypal does that you can't
> >>already do with more secure means? Why not just use a credit card?
> >
> >Because most people don't have the ability to process credit cards?
>
> Then get a money order. Why is PayPal better than a money order?

Because you collect your money instantly. And because you don't have to
drive somewhere to get a money order. And because you can process
payment right from the vendor's web page.

In article
<gmgraves-552377.13295508072003[at]newssvr14-ext.news.prodigy.com>,
George Graves <gmgraves[at]pacbell.net> wrote:

> In article <t16mgv888ok6dammqbunhsp107pfnq3j8n[at]4ax.com>,
> Mayor of R'lyeh <ev515o[at]hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 01:51:06 GMT, foo <foo[at]bar.com> chose to bless us
> > with the following wisdom:
> >
> > >On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 00:23:23 GMT, George Graves <gmgraves[at]pacbell.net>
> > >wrote:
> > >
> > >>In May, I ordered a Core Criib. In June, Apple sent Core a cease and
> > >>desist order, so I canceled my order. John Fraser, the head of the
> > >>company sent me an E-mail saying that my money would be refunded. On
> > >>June 23, after repeated threats from me, finally he issued a refund
> > >>through PayPal. Then, inexplicably, a few hours later, he canceled it.
> > >>Since then, nothing. He has not returned my phone calls nor has he
> > >>answered any of the e-mails that I have sent him. I had no recourse but
> > >>to report him to his local BBB and to call the Minnesota State Attorny a
> > >>bout this matter. On his web sitem he says that he has made "other
> > >>arrangements" and will be back selling Core computers soon. DON'T BUY
> > >>FROM THIS COMPANY.
> > >
> > >Paypal - /shudder.
> >
> > Has anyone ever figured out what the hell Paypal does that you can't
> > already do with more secure means? Why not just use a credit card?
>
> My sentiments exactly. Fraser (who finally contacted me after I
> threatened to call the Minnesota BBB and State's Attorny) says that he
> didn't cancel my refund, and that it's some glitch with Paypal. He says
> he used Paypal because it was easier and cheaper for him that setting up
> his own credit-card accounts with Master, Visa, Siscover, and AMX.

BTW, the ball's back in the Core guy's court. Paypal canceled the
cahrge-back because he had insufficient funds in his Paypal account to
cover it. That doesn't mean that he can't cover it, it just means that
since he is no longer selling computers, there is no reason for there to
be any money in his paypal account. I have requested that he just send
me certified funds instead. Much lass hassle that way. If I get my bank
involved with the CC thing, it just prolongs the agony (especially since
I already paid).

--
George Graves

In article <snspgvg9rsfsc62gtsk1hq48aert3mi2bn[at]4ax.com>,
Steve Hanson <icustomercare[at]usps.com> wrote:

> foo wrote in <4gnpgvk1ilr926ngrveqm9v3h4o5dl2mo9[at]4ax.com>:
>
> >On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 03:14:13 GMT, Steve Hanson
> ><icustomercare[at]usps.com> wrote:
> >
> >>foo wrote in <gfkpgvgit7snn9dur649mor3varvttnppb[at]4ax.com>:
> >>
> >>>On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 02:36:25 GMT, Steve Hanson
> >>><icustomercare[at]usps.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>foo wrote in <4abmgv46vir555kip10s8r952h1g0po1j1[at]4ax.com>:
> >>>>
> >>>>>On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 15:38:48 -0500, Mayor of R'lyeh
> >>>>><ev515o[at]hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 12:38:47 -0700, Josiah Fizer <jfizer[at]classy.com>
> >>>>>>chose to bless us with the following wisdom:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 14:16:25 -0500, Mayor of R'lyeh
> >>>>>>><ev515o[at]hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 01:51:06 GMT, foo <foo[at]bar.com> chose to bless us
> >>>>>>>>with the following wisdom:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 00:23:23 GMT, George Graves
> >>>>>>>>><gmgraves[at]pacbell.net>
> >>>>>>>>>wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>In May, I ordered a Core Criib. In June, Apple sent Core a cease
> >>>>>>>>>>and
> >>>>>>>>>>desist order, so I canceled my order. John Fraser, the head of the
> >>>>>>>>>>company sent me an E-mail saying that my money would be refunded.
> >>>>>>>>>>On
> >>>>>>>>>>June 23, after repeated threats from me, finally he issued a refund
> >>>>>>>>>>through PayPal. Then, inexplicably, a few hours later, he canceled
> >>>>>>>>>>it.
> >>>>>>>>>>Since then, nothing. He has not returned my phone calls nor has he
> >>>>>>>>>>answered any of the e-mails that I have sent him. I had no recourse
> >>>>>>>>>>but
> >>>>>>>>>>to report him to his local BBB and to call the Minnesota State
> >>>>>>>>>>Attorny a
> >>>>>>>>>>bout this matter. On his web sitem he says that he has made "other
> >>>>>>>>>>arrangements" and will be back selling Core computers soon. DON'T
> >>>>>>>>>>BUY
> >>>>>>>>>>FROM THIS COMPANY.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>Paypal - /shudder.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>Has anyone ever figured out what the hell Paypal does that you can't
> >>>>>>>>already do with more secure means? Why not just use a credit card?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Because most people don't have the ability to process credit cards?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Then get a money order. Why is PayPal better than a money order?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Faster and cheaper - but the inherent lack of security in PP kills the
> >>>>>deal for me. I can't imagine buying with it from someone I don't know
> >>>>>- at least the CC gives plenty of protection against fraud. If I pay
> >>>>>a few more $$$ because of it, no problem.
> >>>>
> >>>>You know you can use credit cards with PayPal.
> >>>
> >>>And that doesn't provide any protection whatsoever. Your credit card
> >>>company will (correctly) say that their contract with you was to
> >>>provide funds to Paypal, not to the person Paypal pays, so they won't
> >>>cover your screwup.
> >>
> >>See my reply to your other post. Visa/Mastercard do not play that
> >>game.
> >
> >You're right - which is exactly what I said - they don't cover you.
> >Paypal is a very high-risk game.
>
> Now you're just irritating me. Visa/Mastercard will reimburse the
> cardholder. How is that not covering you?

No, they won't.

In article <c6mpgv8db8n6teq4co4sauq85565jracvr[at]4ax.com>,
Steve Hanson <icustomercare[at]usps.com> wrote:

> foo wrote in <7okpgvohssl4tue49e4h70nu9ivhfuir4e[at]4ax.com>:
>
> >On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 02:42:02 GMT, flip <flippo[at]mac.com> wrote:
> >
> >>In article <n8kpgvgq6gq1s2du78sja9uv2ng6i3r8r0[at]4ax.com>,
> >> Steve Hanson <icustomercare[at]usps.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> foo wrote in <4abmgv46vir555kip10s8r952h1g0po1j1[at]4ax.com>:
> >>>
> >>> >On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 15:38:48 -0500, Mayor of R'lyeh
> >>> ><ev515o[at]hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> >>On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 12:38:47 -0700, Josiah Fizer <jfizer[at]classy.com>
> >>> >>chose to bless us with the following wisdom:
> >>> >>
> >>> >>>On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 14:16:25 -0500, Mayor of R'lyeh
> >>> >>><ev515o[at]hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>>>On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 01:51:06 GMT, foo <foo[at]bar.com> chose to bless us
> >>> >>>>with the following wisdom:
> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>>>>On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 00:23:23 GMT, George Graves
> >>> >>>>><gmgraves[at]pacbell.net>
> >>> >>>>>wrote:
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>>>In May, I ordered a Core Criib. In June, Apple sent Core a cease
> >>> >>>>>>and
> >>> >>>>>>desist order, so I canceled my order. John Fraser, the head of the
> >>> >>>>>>company sent me an E-mail saying that my money would be refunded.
> >>> >>>>>>On
> >>> >>>>>>June 23, after repeated threats from me, finally he issued a refund
> >>> >>>>>>through PayPal. Then, inexplicably, a few hours later, he canceled
> >>> >>>>>>it.
> >>> >>>>>>Since then, nothing. He has not returned my phone calls nor has he
> >>> >>>>>>answered any of the e-mails that I have sent him. I had no recourse
> >>> >>>>>>but
> >>> >>>>>>to report him to his local BBB and to call the Minnesota State
> >>> >>>>>>Attorny
> >>> >>>>>>a
> >>> >>>>>>bout this matter. On his web sitem he says that he has made "other
> >>> >>>>>>arrangements" and will be back selling Core computers soon. DON'T
> >>> >>>>>>BUY
> >>> >>>>>>FROM THIS COMPANY.
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>>Paypal - /shudder.
> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>>>Has anyone ever figured out what the hell Paypal does that you can't
> >>> >>>>already do with more secure means? Why not just use a credit card?
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>>Because most people don't have the ability to process credit cards?
> >>> >>
> >>> >>Then get a money order. Why is PayPal better than a money order?
> >>> >
> >>> >Faster and cheaper - but the inherent lack of security in PP kills the
> >>> >deal for me. I can't imagine buying with it from someone I don't know
> >>> >- at least the CC gives plenty of protection against fraud. If I pay
> >>> >a few more $$$ because of it, no problem.
> >>>
> >>> You know you can use credit cards with PayPal.
> >>
> >>That's actually a bad idea. You can't challenge the payment very well.
> >>All Paypal has to do is show that they had your permission to send
> >>payment and that they did so. They're not the vendor, so they have no
> >>obligation to return your money if things go bad.
> >>
> >>If you're going to use a credit card, do so directly with the vendor -
> >>NOT through Paypal.
> >>
> >>Just one more of the infinite list of things you don't know anything
> >>about......
> >
> >(Check the record books, folks - flip agreed with me...)
>
> You're both wrong. Read and learn:
>
> http://www.msnbc.com/news/858786.asp
>
> Quote:
>
> "Visa and Mastercard require PayPal to accept responsibility as the
> “merchant of record� in its transactions. That means PayPal is liable
> to foot the bill when a customer does not receive the merchandise and
> disputes the transaction, according to Janet Yang, spokesperson for
> Visa USA Inc."
>
> Unless you use Discover, you're covered.
>
> Just one more of the infinite list of things flip has shot himself in
> the foot while trying to correct people about... ;-)

Did you even bother to read the article you cited?

Paypal is being sued _precisely because_ they won't let users use
chargebacks.

Sure, they talk a good story, but in practice, it doesn't work. Read the
article.

On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 05:04:19 GMT, Steve Hanson
<icustomercare[at]usps.com> wrote:

>foo wrote in <fdnpgvgkvqdf1kgpkn9ksp8ks8ielsp8nl[at]4ax.com>:
>
>>On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 03:13:41 GMT, Steve Hanson
>><icustomercare[at]usps.com> wrote:
>>
>>>foo wrote in <7okpgvohssl4tue49e4h70nu9ivhfuir4e[at]4ax.com>:
>>>
>>>>On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 02:42:02 GMT, flip <flippo[at]mac.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>In article <n8kpgvgq6gq1s2du78sja9uv2ng6i3r8r0[at]4ax.com>,
>>>>> Steve Hanson <icustomercare[at]usps.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> foo wrote in <4abmgv46vir555kip10s8r952h1g0po1j1[at]4ax.com>:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 15:38:48 -0500, Mayor of R'lyeh
>>>>>> ><ev515o[at]hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >>On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 12:38:47 -0700, Josiah Fizer <jfizer[at]classy.com>
>>>>>> >>chose to bless us with the following wisdom:
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>>On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 14:16:25 -0500, Mayor of R'lyeh
>>>>>> >>><ev515o[at]hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>>On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 01:51:06 GMT, foo <foo[at]bar.com> chose to bless us
>>>>>> >>>>with the following wisdom:
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 00:23:23 GMT, George Graves <gmgraves[at]pacbell.net>
>>>>>> >>>>>wrote:
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>In May, I ordered a Core Criib. In June, Apple sent Core a cease and
>>>>>> >>>>>>desist order, so I canceled my order. John Fraser, the head of the
>>>>>> >>>>>>company sent me an E-mail saying that my money would be refunded. On
>>>>>> >>>>>>June 23, after repeated threats from me, finally he issued a refund
>>>>>> >>>>>>through PayPal. Then, inexplicably, a few hours later, he canceled it.
>>>>>> >>>>>>Since then, nothing. He has not returned my phone calls nor has he
>>>>>> >>>>>>answered any of the e-mails that I have sent him. I had no recourse but
>>>>>> >>>>>>to report him to his local BBB and to call the Minnesota State Attorny
>>>>>> >>>>>>a
>>>>>> >>>>>>bout this matter. On his web sitem he says that he has made "other
>>>>>> >>>>>>arrangements" and will be back selling Core computers soon. DON'T BUY
>>>>>> >>>>>>FROM THIS COMPANY.
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>Paypal - /shudder.
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>>Has anyone ever figured out what the hell Paypal does that you can't
>>>>>> >>>>already do with more secure means? Why not just use a credit card?
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>Because most people don't have the ability to process credit cards?
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>Then get a money order. Why is PayPal better than a money order?
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >Faster and cheaper - but the inherent lack of security in PP kills the
>>>>>> >deal for me. I can't imagine buying with it from someone I don't know
>>>>>> >- at least the CC gives plenty of protection against fraud. If I pay
>>>>>> >a few more $$$ because of it, no problem.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You know you can use credit cards with PayPal.
>>>>>
>>>>>That's actually a bad idea. You can't challenge the payment very well.
>>>>>All Paypal has to do is show that they had your permission to send
>>>>>payment and that they did so. They're not the vendor, so they have no
>>>>>obligation to return your money if things go bad.
>>>>>
>>>>>If you're going to use a credit card, do so directly with the vendor -
>>>>>NOT through Paypal.
>>>>>
>>>>>Just one more of the infinite list of things you don't know anything
>>>>>about......
>>>>
>>>>(Check the record books, folks - flip agreed with me...)
>>>
>>>You're both wrong. Read and learn:
>>>
>>>http://www.msnbc.com/news/858786.asp
>>>
>>>Quote:
>>>
>>>"Visa and Mastercard require PayPal to accept responsibility as the
>>>“merchant of record” in its transactions. That means PayPal is liable
>>>to foot the bill when a customer does not receive the merchandise and
>>>disputes the transaction, according to Janet Yang, spokesperson for
>>>Visa USA Inc."
>>>
>>>Unless you use Discover, you're covered.
>>>
>>>Just one more of the infinite list of things flip has shot himself in
>>>the foot while trying to correct people about... ;-)
>>
>>Actually, neither he nor I is wrong.
>>
>>Visa requires PayPal to accept responsibility. Paypal doesn't.
>>Therefore, you aren't covered.
>
>Uh, no. Visa will reimburse you and has the power to make Paypal
>heel.

And Paypal confiscates your account....IF you used Visa. AmEx and
Discover customers weren't so lucky - in that particular case. I'd
not risk my money over an issue like that.

>Did you read the link?

Have you ever read horror stories from people using Paypal?

>Visa/Mastercard will stick Paypal with
>the bill. And given Paypal's need to accept credit card transactions,
>there isn't a damn thing they can do about it.

Sure there is - confiscate your account and any money in it.

And since neither Discover nor AmEx will cave to PayPal, apparently,
that takes the teeth out of your "there isn't a damn thing they can do
about it", because obviously they did do a damned thing about it where
AmEx and Discover are concerned.

>> And if you'll note, we both said you
>>don't get typical creditcard protection - and what you posted exactly
>>agrees with that - the CC vendor *doesn't* protect you.
>>
>>The problem with what you posted, of course, is that neither does
>>Paypal.
>
>Again, just read the article. Just how can you interpret "PayPal is
>liable to foot the bill" to mean the customer is not covered?

1. Only with MC and Visa - not with AmEx and Discover. Paypal
doesn't make that clear.
2. Policies can change at any time - common sense tells you MC and
Visa are being *very* nice to cover this.
3. Paypal can confiscate your account for filing *anything* with your
credit card company.

Reason enough to avoid PP.

foo wrote in <a2brgvka931evm2eb645krn0329d5ijrtf[at]4ax.com>:

>On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 05:04:19 GMT, Steve Hanson
><icustomercare[at]usps.com> wrote:
>
>>foo wrote in <fdnpgvgkvqdf1kgpkn9ksp8ks8ielsp8nl[at]4ax.com>:
>>
>>>On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 03:13:41 GMT, Steve Hanson
>>><icustomercare[at]usps.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>foo wrote in <7okpgvohssl4tue49e4h70nu9ivhfuir4e[at]4ax.com>:
>>>>
>>>>>On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 02:42:02 GMT, flip <flippo[at]mac.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>In article <n8kpgvgq6gq1s2du78sja9uv2ng6i3r8r0[at]4ax.com>,
>>>>>> Steve Hanson <icustomercare[at]usps.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> foo wrote in <4abmgv46vir555kip10s8r952h1g0po1j1[at]4ax.com>:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 15:38:48 -0500, Mayor of R'lyeh
>>>>>>> ><ev515o[at]hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >>On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 12:38:47 -0700, Josiah Fizer <jfizer[at]classy.com>
>>>>>>> >>chose to bless us with the following wisdom:
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >>>On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 14:16:25 -0500, Mayor of R'lyeh
>>>>>>> >>><ev515o[at]hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>>>On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 01:51:06 GMT, foo <foo[at]bar.com> chose to bless us
>>>>>>> >>>>with the following wisdom:
>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 00:23:23 GMT, George Graves <gmgraves[at]pacbell.net>
>>>>>>> >>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>>In May, I ordered a Core Criib. In June, Apple sent Core a cease and
>>>>>>> >>>>>>desist order, so I canceled my order. John Fraser, the head of the
>>>>>>> >>>>>>company sent me an E-mail saying that my money would be refunded. On
>>>>>>> >>>>>>June 23, after repeated threats from me, finally he issued a refund
>>>>>>> >>>>>>through PayPal. Then, inexplicably, a few hours later, he canceled it.
>>>>>>> >>>>>>Since then, nothing. He has not returned my phone calls nor has he
>>>>>>> >>>>>>answered any of the e-mails that I have sent him. I had no recourse but
>>>>>>> >>>>>>to report him to his local BBB and to call the Minnesota State Attorny
>>>>>>> >>>>>>a
>>>>>>> >>>>>>bout this matter. On his web sitem he says that he has made "other
>>>>>>> >>>>>>arrangements" and will be back selling Core computers soon. DON'T BUY
>>>>>>> >>>>>>FROM THIS COMPANY.
>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>Paypal - /shudder.
>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>Has anyone ever figured out what the hell Paypal does that you can't
>>>>>>> >>>>already do with more secure means? Why not just use a credit card?
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>>Because most people don't have the ability to process credit cards?
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >>Then get a money order. Why is PayPal better than a money order?
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >Faster and cheaper - but the inherent lack of security in PP kills the
>>>>>>> >deal for me. I can't imagine buying with it from someone I don't know
>>>>>>> >- at least the CC gives plenty of protection against fraud. If I pay
>>>>>>> >a few more $$$ because of it, no problem.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You know you can use credit cards with PayPal.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>That's actually a bad idea. You can't challenge the payment very well.
>>>>>>All Paypal has to do is show that they had your permission to send
>>>>>>payment and that they did so. They're not the vendor, so they have no
>>>>>>obligation to return your money if things go bad.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>If you're going to use a credit card, do so directly with the vendor -
>>>>>>NOT through Paypal.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Just one more of the infinite list of things you don't know anything
>>>>>>about......
>>>>>
>>>>>(Check the record books, folks - flip agreed with me...)
>>>>
>>>>You're both wrong. Read and learn:
>>>>
>>>>http://www.msnbc.com/news/858786.asp
>>>>
>>>>Quote:
>>>>
>>>>"Visa and Mastercard require PayPal to accept responsibility as the
>>>>“merchant of record” in its transactions. That means PayPal is liable
>>>>to foot the bill when a customer does not receive the merchandise and
>>>>disputes the transaction, according to Janet Yang, spokesperson for
>>>>Visa USA Inc."
>>>>
>>>>Unless you use Discover, you're covered.
>>>>
>>>>Just one more of the infinite list of things flip has shot himself in
>>>>the foot while trying to correct people about... ;-)
>>>
>>>Actually, neither he nor I is wrong.
>>>
>>>Visa requires PayPal to accept responsibility. Paypal doesn't.
>>>Therefore, you aren't covered.
>>
>>Uh, no. Visa will reimburse you and has the power to make Paypal
>>heel.
>
>And Paypal confiscates your account....IF you used Visa. AmEx and
>Discover customers weren't so lucky - in that particular case. I'd
>not risk my money over an issue like that.

If you're a buyer there's nothing to confiscate. If you're a seller
you'd be stupid not to draw down the account before talking to Visa in
the first place, plus we're talking about buyers, not sellers.

And I already mentioned that Discover does not have the same policy
(to their discredit)--bringing it up as if this is knowledge you're
bringing to the discussion is pathetic.

You've boxed yourself in a corner with a couple of foolish statements
and now you're trying to worm your way out. You simply didn't know
that the most used credit cards are completely covered, but rather
than watch you admit you didn't know I get to put up with this tap
dance.

Visa/Mastercard will reimburse you completely for a purchase that was
not delivered. HOW IS THAT RISKING YOUR MONEY?

>>Did you read the link?
>
>Have you ever read horror stories from people using Paypal?

You didn't read the link. You won't answer my questions. You won't
acknowledge that you were dead wrong and that Visa/Mastercard
customers are 100% PROTECTED when they buy using PayPal. (And other
cardholders should petition their credit companies to do the same,
since PayPal needs them far more than they need PayPal.)

This thread is done, there's no point replying to you. Anyone stupid
enough to take your obvious evasions at face value deserves to believe
the misinformation you've been spewing.