Re: nine fans-Mac Usenet

Mayor of R'lyeh

07-08-2003, 04:47 PM

On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 11:38:10 GMT, Joe Ragosta <joe[at]ragosta.com> chose
to bless us with the following wisdom:

>In article <88hjgvo61o8dh49imgb1ivo4bketjlgo06[at]4ax.com>,
> Steve Hanson <icustomercare[at]usps.com> wrote:
>
>> John C. Randolph wrote in <3F07DCE1.6E18C7FD[at]nospam.idiom.com>:
>>
>> >Mayor of R'lyeh wrote:
>> >> When a PC has two case fans its mocked
>> >> for its excessive need for cooling but when a Mac has nine case fans
>> >> its a sign of 'high refinement'. Maccie bigotry and detachment from
>> >> reality doesn't get much clearer than this.
>> >
>> >The difference would be that the Mac's cooling design achieves high
>> >effectiveness with very little noise.
>>
>> Yeah, you've heard one running in a quiet setting, haven't you. Or,
>> wait, Apple said how many dBs of noise it produces. Or, wait, Apple
>> tends to produce quiet tower systems. Or, wait, you just like Apple
>> no thinking required to say it's brilliant.
>
>I guess '35 dba' is too complicated for you to understand.

You seem to have gotten so excited over this that you forgot to be
flip. 8)

--

"Whoever is advising them [Democrats] on gun control
should be shot."

Blaine Rummel, spokesman for the Coalition to
Stop Gun Violence.

Flip

07-08-2003, 07:03 PM

In article <eqplgv0g2s1rnkde6q75nv48jnk8pfqfrk[at]4ax.com>,
Mayor of R'lyeh <ev515o[at]hotmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 11:38:10 GMT, Joe Ragosta <joe[at]ragosta.com> chose
> to bless us with the following wisdom:
>
> >In article <88hjgvo61o8dh49imgb1ivo4bketjlgo06[at]4ax.com>,
> > Steve Hanson <icustomercare[at]usps.com> wrote:
> >
> >> John C. Randolph wrote in <3F07DCE1.6E18C7FD[at]nospam.idiom.com>:
> >>
> >> >Mayor of R'lyeh wrote:
> >> >> When a PC has two case fans its mocked
> >> >> for its excessive need for cooling but when a Mac has nine case fans
> >> >> its a sign of 'high refinement'. Maccie bigotry and detachment from
> >> >> reality doesn't get much clearer than this.
> >> >
> >> >The difference would be that the Mac's cooling design achieves high
> >> >effectiveness with very little noise.
> >>
> >> Yeah, you've heard one running in a quiet setting, haven't you. Or,
> >> wait, Apple said how many dBs of noise it produces. Or, wait, Apple
> >> tends to produce quiet tower systems. Or, wait, you just like Apple
> >> no thinking required to say it's brilliant.
> >
> >I guess '35 dba' is too complicated for you to understand.
>
> You seem to have gotten so excited over this that you forgot to be
> flip. 8)

Sorry, I took my laptop on the road and reformatted from scratch to test
a new OS. I forgot to fix it.

Done.

foo

07-08-2003, 09:12 PM

On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 18:03:37 GMT, Flip <flippo[at]flip.com> wrote:

>Sorry, I took my laptop on the road and reformatted from scratch to test
>a new OS. I forgot to fix it.

What new OS was that? You're not a developer.

MuahMan

07-08-2003, 10:06 PM

What he means is his piece of shit Mac craptop crashed and he lost
everything. LOL

"Flip" <flippo[at]flip.com> wrote in message
news:flippo-F672CE.13035908072003[at]nnrp06.earthlink.net...
> In article <eqplgv0g2s1rnkde6q75nv48jnk8pfqfrk[at]4ax.com>,
> Mayor of R'lyeh <ev515o[at]hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 11:38:10 GMT, Joe Ragosta <joe[at]ragosta.com> chose
> > to bless us with the following wisdom:
> >
> > >In article <88hjgvo61o8dh49imgb1ivo4bketjlgo06[at]4ax.com>,
> > > Steve Hanson <icustomercare[at]usps.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> John C. Randolph wrote in <3F07DCE1.6E18C7FD[at]nospam.idiom.com>:
> > >>
> > >> >Mayor of R'lyeh wrote:
> > >> >> When a PC has two case fans its mocked
> > >> >> for its excessive need for cooling but when a Mac has nine case
fans
> > >> >> its a sign of 'high refinement'. Maccie bigotry and detachment
from
> > >> >> reality doesn't get much clearer than this.
> > >> >
> > >> >The difference would be that the Mac's cooling design achieves high
> > >> >effectiveness with very little noise.
> > >>
> > >> Yeah, you've heard one running in a quiet setting, haven't you. Or,
> > >> wait, Apple said how many dBs of noise it produces. Or, wait, Apple
> > >> tends to produce quiet tower systems. Or, wait, you just like Apple
> > >> no thinking required to say it's brilliant.
> > >
> > >I guess '35 dba' is too complicated for you to understand.
> >
> > You seem to have gotten so excited over this that you forgot to be
> > flip. 8)
>
> Sorry, I took my laptop on the road and reformatted from scratch to test
> a new OS. I forgot to fix it.
>
> Done.

foo

07-08-2003, 11:40 PM

On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 22:32:28 GMT, Flip <flippo[at]flip.com> wrote:

>In article <u69mgvoonr0g37ops27rd253cot6nq7eeb[at]4ax.com>,
> foo <foo[at]bar.com> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 18:03:37 GMT, Flip <flippo[at]flip.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Sorry, I took my laptop on the road and reformatted from scratch to test
>> >a new OS. I forgot to fix it.
>>
>> What new OS was that? You're not a developer.
>
>So?

So hopefully you're not espousing the piracy of WWDC's 10.3, which is
the only new OS that one could test.

Flip

07-08-2003, 11:56 PM

In article <m2imgvsj9v7g72buh1t0luek84qqnlfqi4[at]4ax.com>,
foo <foo[at]bar.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 22:32:28 GMT, Flip <flippo[at]flip.com> wrote:
>
> >In article <u69mgvoonr0g37ops27rd253cot6nq7eeb[at]4ax.com>,
> > foo <foo[at]bar.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 18:03:37 GMT, Flip <flippo[at]flip.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Sorry, I took my laptop on the road and reformatted from scratch to test
> >> >a new OS. I forgot to fix it.
> >>
> >> What new OS was that? You're not a developer.
> >
> >So?
>
> So hopefully you're not espousing the piracy of WWDC's 10.3, which is
> the only new OS that one could test.

First, OS X 10.3 isn't the only new OS that one could test.

Second, I don't endorse piracy and never have.

Third, there are other ways to get (legal) access to new operating
systems besides being a developer.

But don't let the facts confuse you. You're hilarious when you're
accusing others of wrongdoing.

John

07-09-2003, 12:01 AM

Flip wrote:
> In article <m2imgvsj9v7g72buh1t0luek84qqnlfqi4[at]4ax.com>,
> foo <foo[at]bar.com> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 22:32:28 GMT, Flip <flippo[at]flip.com> wrote:
>>
>>> In article <u69mgvoonr0g37ops27rd253cot6nq7eeb[at]4ax.com>,
>>> foo <foo[at]bar.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 18:03:37 GMT, Flip <flippo[at]flip.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Sorry, I took my laptop on the road and reformatted from scratch
>>>>> to test a new OS. I forgot to fix it.
>>>>
>>>> What new OS was that? You're not a developer.
>>>
>>> So?
>>
>> So hopefully you're not espousing the piracy of WWDC's 10.3, which is
>> the only new OS that one could test.
>
> First, OS X 10.3 isn't the only new OS that one could test.
>
> Second, I don't endorse piracy and never have.
>
> Third, there are other ways to get (legal) access to new operating
> systems besides being a developer.
>
> But don't let the facts confuse you. You're hilarious when you're
> accusing others of wrongdoing.

Personally I think your laptop got screwed up somehow and you had to
reinstall 10.2. Most likely.

Flip

07-09-2003, 12:26 AM

In article <63IOa.44$Pd2.1108[at]newsfeed.avtel.net>,
"John" <nospam[at]nospam.com> wrote:

> Flip wrote:
> > In article <m2imgvsj9v7g72buh1t0luek84qqnlfqi4[at]4ax.com>,
> > foo <foo[at]bar.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 22:32:28 GMT, Flip <flippo[at]flip.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> In article <u69mgvoonr0g37ops27rd253cot6nq7eeb[at]4ax.com>,
> >>> foo <foo[at]bar.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 18:03:37 GMT, Flip <flippo[at]flip.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Sorry, I took my laptop on the road and reformatted from scratch
> >>>>> to test a new OS. I forgot to fix it.
> >>>>
> >>>> What new OS was that? You're not a developer.
> >>>
> >>> So?
> >>
> >> So hopefully you're not espousing the piracy of WWDC's 10.3, which is
> >> the only new OS that one could test.
> >
> > First, OS X 10.3 isn't the only new OS that one could test.
> >
> > Second, I don't endorse piracy and never have.
> >
> > Third, there are other ways to get (legal) access to new operating
> > systems besides being a developer.
> >
> > But don't let the facts confuse you. You're hilarious when you're
> > accusing others of wrongdoing.
>
>
> Personally I think your laptop got screwed up somehow and you had to
> reinstall 10.2. Most likely.
>
>

That's OK. You never seem to know what you're talking about. Why should
this be any different?

07-09-2003, 12:43 AM

In article <u69mgvoonr0g37ops27rd253cot6nq7eeb[at]4ax.com>,
foo <foo[at]bar.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 18:03:37 GMT, Flip <flippo[at]flip.com> wrote:
>
> >Sorry, I took my laptop on the road and reformatted from scratch to test
> >a new OS. I forgot to fix it.
>
> What new OS was that?

Maybe Panther??

> You're not a developer.

Why does he have to be a developer? Besides pirating it (which I doubt
he did) all you have to do is pay Apple some money and join the
developer program. It's not like they test you to make sure you know
how to program.

Plus given that he is "Joe Ragosta- Mac Advocate extradornaire" I bet
Apple lets him beta test anything he wants (practically)

07-09-2003, 12:45 AM

In article <m2imgvsj9v7g72buh1t0luek84qqnlfqi4[at]4ax.com>,
foo <foo[at]bar.com> wrote:

> So hopefully you're not espousing the piracy of WWDC's 10.3, which is
> the only new OS that one could test.

Oh please. We all know Joe wouldnt pirate (tho his family members are
a different story ;-) ).

How hard do you think it is to legally get 10.3? Pay $40 to take a
class at a community college. Sign up for apple's student developer
program, at about $100. I believe you would get it then.

foo

07-09-2003, 01:26 AM

On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 23:43:18 GMT, no <no[at]no.com> wrote:

>In article <u69mgvoonr0g37ops27rd253cot6nq7eeb[at]4ax.com>,
> foo <foo[at]bar.com> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 18:03:37 GMT, Flip <flippo[at]flip.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Sorry, I took my laptop on the road and reformatted from scratch to test
>> >a new OS. I forgot to fix it.
>>
>> What new OS was that?
>
>Maybe Panther??

Hmmm.... is that true Flip?

>> You're not a developer.
>
>Why does he have to be a developer? Besides pirating it (which I doubt
>he did) all you have to do is pay Apple some money and join the
>developer program. It's not like they test you to make sure you know
>how to program.

Somehow I doubt flip paid $2500 ($5000?) to join up.

>Plus given that he is "Mac Advocate extradornaire" I bet
>Apple lets him beta test anything he wants (practically)

Snipped name. Tacky. Annoying.

foo

07-09-2003, 01:27 AM

On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 23:45:50 GMT, no <no[at]no.com> wrote:

>How hard do you think it is to legally get 10.3? Pay $40 to take a
>class at a community college. Sign up for apple's student developer
>program, at about $100. I believe you would get it then.

Given his problems with Dell's plainly available and open business
store, the flip we know would ***NEVER*** do that!

flip

07-10-2003, 11:56 AM

Herb Singleton

07-10-2003, 03:22 PM

In article <187fab45.0307092211.52152ab[at]posting.google.com>,
cupertinojustin[at]yahoo.com (Justin in Cupertino) wrote:

> Ok, little Miss Acoustical Engineer!
>
> Please explain to all of us what, exactly "35 dba" means.
>
> Now, in Engineering School, I learned that the abbreviation for
> Decibel was "dB" not "db".

The accepted convention nowadays is "dB" but that wasn't always the
case. If you thumb through Leo Beranek's "Acoustics" text (originally
written in 1954), you can see that he uses the abbreviation "db" - and
who's to tell him he's wrong?

> Please explain to me what, exactly 35 "dba" is, and the difference
> between the "A" sound filter scale and the "C" sound filter scale, and
> how do you compare two decibel levels.

35 dBA is approximately the level inside what most would consider to be
a quiet home in the evening, with no significant outdoor noise. The "A"
weighting network simulates the response of the human ear at low sound
levels by attenuating low and high frequencies, and accentuating the
mid-frequencies. The "C" weighting network approximates the response of
the human ear to high sound levels, and provides a slight roll-off to
low and very high frequencies.

A plot of the relative response to the A and B networks is shown at
<http://www.cross-spectrum.com/audio/newgifs/weighting_1.gif>

> Also, where did you get your engineering degree?

I know you weren't asking me, but I'll answer anyway: A little-known
engineering school in Cambridge, MA...

--
Herb Singleton
spam1[at] cross-spectrum.com
Sound & Vibration Measurements
http://www.cross-spectrum.com

Steve Hanson

07-10-2003, 05:14 PM

Woofbert wrote in
<woofbert.spam-4F991A.00570710072003[at]typhoon.sonic.net>:

>In article <187fab45.0307092211.52152ab[at]posting.google.com>,
> cupertinojustin[at]yahoo.com (Justin in Cupertino) wrote:
>
>> Joe Ragosta <joe[at]ragosta.com> wrote in message
>> news:<joe-AAC7A4.06410908072003[at]nnrp03.earthlink.net>...
>>
>> > I guess '35 dba' is too complicated for you to understand.
>>
>> Ok, little Miss Acoustical Engineer!
>>
>> Please explain to all of us what, exactly "35 dba" means.
>>
>> Now, in Engineering School, I learned that the abbreviation for
>> Decibel was "dB" not "db".
>>
>> Please explain to me what, exactly 35 "dba" is, and the difference
>> between the "A" sound filter scale and the "C" sound filter scale, and
>> how do you compare two decibel levels.
>>
>> Also, where did you get your engineering degree?
>
>Wuh-oh! An intelligent question!
>
>So if you're so smart, how come you can't tell us the flavors of burrito
>tortillas available in the cafeteria?

He can't hear you, he's using a G4. Better type in ALL CAPS.

Steve Hanson

07-10-2003, 05:15 PM

Herb Singleton wrote in
<usenet-5157EB.10222210072003[at]news.comcast.giganews.com>:

>In article <187fab45.0307092211.52152ab[at]posting.google.com>,
> cupertinojustin[at]yahoo.com (Justin in Cupertino) wrote:
>
>> Ok, little Miss Acoustical Engineer!
>>
>> Please explain to all of us what, exactly "35 dba" means.
>>
>> Now, in Engineering School, I learned that the abbreviation for
>> Decibel was "dB" not "db".
>
>The accepted convention nowadays is "dB" but that wasn't always the
>case. If you thumb through Leo Beranek's "Acoustics" text (originally
>written in 1954), you can see that he uses the abbreviation "db" - and
>who's to tell him he's wrong?

How weak. It's like appealing to some old Cotton Mather parchment
that that's why you can't spell the word "opportune".

Steve Carroll

07-10-2003, 08:29 PM

In article <i71qgvs2kbcnbs77hn413b7in8i9pgujbr[at]4ax.com>,
Josiah Fizer <jfizer[at]classy.com> wrote:

> On 9 Jul 2003 23:11:29 -0700, cupertinojustin[at]yahoo.com (Justin in
> Cupertino) wrote:
>
> >Joe Ragosta <joe[at]ragosta.com> wrote in message
> >news:<joe-AAC7A4.06410908072003[at]nnrp03.earthlink.net>...
> >
> >> I guess '35 dba' is too complicated for you to understand.
> >
> >Ok, little Miss Acoustical Engineer!
> >
> >Please explain to all of us what, exactly "35 dba" means.
> >
> >Now, in Engineering School, I learned that the abbreviation for
> >Decibel was "dB" not "db".
> >
> >Please explain to me what, exactly 35 "dba" is, and the difference
> >between the "A" sound filter scale and the "C" sound filter scale, and
> >how do you compare two decibel levels.
> >
> >Also, where did you get your engineering degree?
>
> A dba is a Database Administrator. It seems the fans are as loud as 35
> underpaid database monkeys bitching about the quality of the coffee.

Good one. :) ... As the logical answers to the question seemed to have
petered out by this post, I have a few things to add to the discussion.
Technically, the term dB, if used as a measurement is worthless without
some form of reference. Derived from the Bel, a decibel always describes
a ratio of two quantities, (often related to power, like electrical or
acoustical). In this case the decibel provides a relative measurement of
sound intensity. The 'A' weighting is designed to simulate how the ear
perceives sound at a certain level range. This is accomplished by
rolling off bass frequencies. An 'A' weighting rolls off more than a 'B'
weighting, which, in turn rolls off more than 'C'. So the term dBA
simply means that the relative measurement in decibels is made with the
A contour filter. With that said, a generally accepted convention
utilizing the dB is to reference the 'zero' dB point to 0.0002 dyne/cm
2, which is one common description of the threshold of human
hearing,(there are numerous others). So, lacking a stated reference and
following the convention, the term dBA is 'referenced' to the quietest
sound that a human with good hearing can perceive,(note that this
changes drastically with respect to frequency so the range is chosen
accordingly to accomodate human hearing irregularities) and weighted
with the 'A' contour filter, which is prefereable for human hearing
measurements within a specific intensity range (approximately the 40
phon level).

Steve

Woofbert

07-10-2003, 09:18 PM

In article <usenet-5157EB.10222210072003[at]news.comcast.giganews.com>,
Herb Singleton <usenet[at]cross-spectrum.com> wrote:

> In article <187fab45.0307092211.52152ab[at]posting.google.com>,
> cupertinojustin[at]yahoo.com (Justin in Cupertino) wrote:
>
<snip>
>
> > Also, where did you get your engineering degree?
>
> I know you weren't asking me, but I'll answer anyway: A little-known
> engineering school in Cambridge, MA...

That must be M.I.T., the Georgia Tech of the North. }: )

--
Woofbert, Chief Rocket Surgeon, Infernosoft
Woofbert's Law on Learning Linux: When attempting to learn Linux,
study it thoroughly before you begin.

Woofbert

07-10-2003, 09:20 PM

In article <o54rgv8l55tpfu1qfqh7ehpqrbs104r4qo[at]4ax.com>,
Steve Hanson <icustomercare[at]usps.com> wrote:

> Woofbert wrote in
> <woofbert.spam-4F991A.00570710072003[at]typhoon.sonic.net>:
>
> >In article <187fab45.0307092211.52152ab[at]posting.google.com>,
> > cupertinojustin[at]yahoo.com (Justin in Cupertino) wrote:
> >
> >> Joe Ragosta <joe[at]ragosta.com> wrote in message
> >> news:<joe-AAC7A4.06410908072003[at]nnrp03.earthlink.net>...
> >>
> >> > I guess '35 dba' is too complicated for you to understand.
> >>
> >> Ok, little Miss Acoustical Engineer!
> >>
> >> Please explain to all of us what, exactly "35 dba" means.
> >>
> >> Now, in Engineering School, I learned that the abbreviation for
> >> Decibel was "dB" not "db".
> >>
> >> Please explain to me what, exactly 35 "dba" is, and the difference
> >> between the "A" sound filter scale and the "C" sound filter scale, and
> >> how do you compare two decibel levels.
> >>
> >> Also, where did you get your engineering degree?
> >
> >Wuh-oh! An intelligent question!
> >
> >So if you're so smart, how come you can't tell us the flavors of burrito
> >tortillas available in the cafeteria?
>
> He can't hear you, he's using a G4. Better type in ALL CAPS.

Stop that, you'll blow out the network interface chips. }: )

--
Woofbert, Chief Rocket Surgeon, Infernosoft
Woofbert's Law on Learning Linux: When attempting to learn Linux,
study it thoroughly before you begin.

Woofbert

07-10-2003, 11:12 PM

In article <fretwizz-A2A708.13295010072003[at]netnews.attbi.com>,
Steve Carroll <fretwizz[at]attbi.com> wrote:

> Good one. :) ... As the logical answers to the question seemed to have
> petered out by this post, I have a few things to add to the discussion.
> Technically, the term dB, if used as a measurement is worthless without
> some form of reference. Derived from the Bel, a decibel always describes
> a ratio of two quantities, (often related to power, like electrical or
> acoustical). In this case the decibel provides a relative measurement of
> sound intensity. The 'A' weighting is designed to simulate how the ear
> perceives sound at a certain level range. This is accomplished by
> rolling off bass frequencies. An 'A' weighting rolls off more than a 'B'
> weighting, which, in turn rolls off more than 'C'. So the term dBA
> simply means that the relative measurement in decibels is made with the
> A contour filter. With that said, a generally accepted convention
> utilizing the dB is to reference the 'zero' dB point to 0.0002 dyne/cm
> 2, which is one common description of the threshold of human
> hearing,(there are numerous others). So, lacking a stated reference and
> following the convention, the term dBA is 'referenced' to the quietest
> sound that a human with good hearing can perceive,(note that this
> changes drastically with respect to frequency so the range is chosen
> accordingly to accomodate human hearing irregularities) and weighted
> with the 'A' contour filter, which is prefereable for human hearing
> measurements within a specific intensity range (approximately the 40
> phon level).

I've been used to decibels all my life, and even have a Radio Shack
sound level meter so I have an idea of whatthey really mean. Now they
come along and invent a new measure of sound level, whose only
application I've seen so far is to measure the noisiness of bathroom
ventilation fans. So. Wat's a phon?

--
Woofbert, Chief Rocket Surgeon, Infernosoft
Woofbert's Law on Learning Linux: When attempting to learn Linux,
study it thoroughly before you begin.

07-11-2003, 04:50 AM

"flip" <flippo[at]mac.com> wrote in message
news:flippo-487C80.05552210072003[at]news.central.cox.net...
> In article <187fab45.0307092211.52152ab[at]posting.google.com>,
> cupertinojustin[at]yahoo.com (Justin in Cupertino) wrote:
>
> > Joe Ragosta <joe[at]ragosta.com> wrote in message
> > news:<joe-AAC7A4.06410908072003[at]nnrp03.earthlink.net>...
> >
> > > I guess '35 dba' is too complicated for you to understand.
> >
> > Ok, little Miss Acoustical Engineer!
> >
> > Please explain to all of us what, exactly "35 dba" means.
> >
> > Now, in Engineering School, I learned that the abbreviation for
> > Decibel was "dB" not "db".
> >
> > Please explain to me what, exactly 35 "dba" is, and the difference
> > between the "A" sound filter scale and the "C" sound filter scale, and
> > how do you compare two decibel levels.
> >
> > Also, where did you get your engineering degree?
>
> I never claimed to be an engineering expert.
>
> But I _do_ know enough to know that 35 db is quiet for a computer.

it's on the lower end of standard pc noise level, but not "quiet".
http://www.yourstores.co.uk/quietpcfaq.htm
http://www.techtv.com/screensavers/opinion/story/0,24330,3386461,00.html
http://www.directron.com/quietpc.html

> Hanson was claiming that there was no real evidence that Apple's systems
> are quite. 35 db sound level is plenty of evidence.

Herb Singleton

07-11-2003, 05:42 AM

In article <woofbert.spam-637FFA.15124710072003[at]typhoon.sonic.net>,
Woofbert <woofbert.spam[at]infernosoft.com> wrote:

> I've been used to decibels all my life, and even have a Radio Shack
> sound level meter so I have an idea of whatthey really mean. Now they
> come along and invent a new measure of sound level, whose only
> application I've seen so far is to measure the noisiness of bathroom
> ventilation fans. So. Wat's a phon?

Perhaps Steve can describe it more eloquently than I, but I shall give
it a shot:

A phon (not to be confused with the sone) is a measure of "loudness"
level, as opposed to dB/dBA/dBC which (for sound) is usually a measure
of pressure. It's a psychoacoustic metric that describes relative sound
magnitudes as perceived by humans, so it accounts for the frequency
response of the ear. The phon scale is based upon equal-loudness
contours, and the numerical value of a phon is the value of the
applicable equal-loudness contour at 1000 Hz.

Rather than explain equal-loudness contours, I'll just point you to:
<http://eamusic.dartmouth.edu/~book/MATCpages/chap.1/1.3.freq_pitch_ints.
html>. Go to the plot of the "Fletcher-Munson Curves."

Of course all these data being thrown about are pretty much useless
without reference distances, descriptions of the measurement conditions,
and a description of the measurement equipment. A computer at 35 dBA
measured in a quiet room with a microphone 5 inches from the noisiest
side of the case is an impressive result. A computer at 35 dBA measured
in an anechoic chamber at 50 ft is not[1]. As Steve pointed out, because
most of the lay people spec'ing dB noise levels for their computers
don't bother providing reference quantities, we really don't know if
they are talking about sound pressure, sound power[2], or sound
intensity, so it's pretty hard to compare them.

That said, if the G4 *does* emit 35 dBA (re 20 microPa) SPL at a couple
of feet, that's pretty darn quiet and will be pretty much inaudible in
most daytime work environments.

Herb

1. I am aware that ANSI has a standard for measuring computer equipment,
but I've never seen anyone refer to them.

2. IBM for example gives sound power levels for the HDD, in Bels (!).
--
Herb Singleton
spam1[at] cross-spectrum.com
Sound & Vibration Measurements
http://www.cross-spectrum.com

Steve Carroll

07-11-2003, 05:53 AM

In article <woofbert.spam-637FFA.15124710072003[at]typhoon.sonic.net>,
Woofbert <woofbert.spam[at]infernosoft.com> wrote:

> In article <fretwizz-A2A708.13295010072003[at]netnews.attbi.com>,
> Steve Carroll <fretwizz[at]attbi.com> wrote:
>
> > Good one. :) ... As the logical answers to the question seemed to have
> > petered out by this post, I have a few things to add to the discussion.
> > Technically, the term dB, if used as a measurement is worthless without
> > some form of reference. Derived from the Bel, a decibel always describes
> > a ratio of two quantities, (often related to power, like electrical or
> > acoustical). In this case the decibel provides a relative measurement of
> > sound intensity. The 'A' weighting is designed to simulate how the ear
> > perceives sound at a certain level range. This is accomplished by
> > rolling off bass frequencies. An 'A' weighting rolls off more than a 'B'
> > weighting, which, in turn rolls off more than 'C'. So the term dBA
> > simply means that the relative measurement in decibels is made with the
> > A contour filter. With that said, a generally accepted convention
> > utilizing the dB is to reference the 'zero' dB point to 0.0002 dyne/cm
> > 2, which is one common description of the threshold of human
> > hearing,(there are numerous others). So, lacking a stated reference and
> > following the convention, the term dBA is 'referenced' to the quietest
> > sound that a human with good hearing can perceive,(note that this
> > changes drastically with respect to frequency so the range is chosen
> > accordingly to accomodate human hearing irregularities) and weighted
> > with the 'A' contour filter, which is prefereable for human hearing
> > measurements within a specific intensity range (approximately the 40
> > phon level).
>
> I've been used to decibels all my life, and even have a Radio Shack
> sound level meter so I have an idea of whatthey really mean. Now they
> come along and invent a new measure of sound level, whose only
> application I've seen so far is to measure the noisiness of bathroom
> ventilation fans. So. Wat's a phon?

It's not new. Anyway, like I stated earlier, all a decibel 'means' is a
method of describing a ratio of two quantities and, due to the
non-linearity of human hearing, a 'phon' scale is used to take into
account a specific frequency, (1000 hz) in an effort to produce a more
meaningful measurement. A phon is essentially the sound pressure level
in dB with consideration given to this frequency. IOW, in this example,
any sound that is as loud as a 10dB sound at 1000 hz would be given a
'loudness' measurement of 10 phons. If you're interested, I'd suggest
you check out equal loudness contours and the use of a 'sone' for more
practical 'loudness' comparisons at differing frequencies.

Steve

Woofbert

07-11-2003, 06:53 AM

In article <usenet-5B5F19.00425811072003[at]news.comcast.giganews.com>,
Herb Singleton <usenet[at]cross-spectrum.com> wrote:

> Rather than explain equal-loudness contours, I'll just point you to:
> <http://eamusic.dartmouth.edu/~book/MATCpages/chap.1/1.3.freq_pitch_ints.
> html>. Go to the plot of the "Fletcher-Munson Curves."

Ahh, the good ol' Fletcher-Munsson Effect: the reason for the "Loudness"
switch on stereos, and for which only Yamaha and one Radio Shack stereo
amplifier have a control that you can actually calibrate.

(Basically, at low sound levels, you have a reduced sensitivity to high
and low frequencies, so the "Loudness" button compensates.
Unfortunately, it compensates with some fixed amount instead of with an
amount proportional to how quiet the volume is set.)

--
Woofbert, Chief Rocket Surgeon, Infernosoft
Woofbert's Law on Learning Linux: When attempting to learn Linux,
study it thoroughly before you begin.

flip

07-11-2003, 12:42 PM

In article <ZtqPa.921$gh4.90967157[at]newssvr13.news.prodigy.com>,
"ed" <news[at]no-atwistedweb-spam.com> wrote:

> "flip" <flippo[at]mac.com> wrote in message
> news:flippo-487C80.05552210072003[at]news.central.cox.net...
> > In article <187fab45.0307092211.52152ab[at]posting.google.com>,
> > cupertinojustin[at]yahoo.com (Justin in Cupertino) wrote:
> >
> > > Joe Ragosta <joe[at]ragosta.com> wrote in message
> > > news:<joe-AAC7A4.06410908072003[at]nnrp03.earthlink.net>...
> > >
> > > > I guess '35 dba' is too complicated for you to understand.
> > >
> > > Ok, little Miss Acoustical Engineer!
> > >
> > > Please explain to all of us what, exactly "35 dba" means.
> > >
> > > Now, in Engineering School, I learned that the abbreviation for
> > > Decibel was "dB" not "db".
> > >
> > > Please explain to me what, exactly 35 "dba" is, and the difference
> > > between the "A" sound filter scale and the "C" sound filter scale, and
> > > how do you compare two decibel levels.
> > >
> > > Also, where did you get your engineering degree?
> >
> > I never claimed to be an engineering expert.
> >
> > But I _do_ know enough to know that 35 db is quiet for a computer.
>
> it's on the lower end of standard pc noise level, but not "quiet".
> http://www.yourstores.co.uk/quietpcfaq.htm
> http://www.techtv.com/screensavers/opinion/story/0,24330,3386461,00.html
> http://www.directron.com/quietpc.html
>
> > Hanson was claiming that there was no real evidence that Apple's systems
> > are quite. 35 db sound level is plenty of evidence.
>
>
>

So?

No one ever claimed that this was the quietest computer in the world
(the iMac would certainly be in the running, though).

The fact that other computers are quieter doesn't mean it's not quiet.
Since you admit that it's at the lower end of standard PC noise level,
it's quiet.

Steve Hanson

07-11-2003, 04:52 PM

Steve Carroll wrote in
<fretwizz-A2A708.13295010072003[at]netnews.attbi.com>:

>In article <i71qgvs2kbcnbs77hn413b7in8i9pgujbr[at]4ax.com>,
> Josiah Fizer <jfizer[at]classy.com> wrote:
>
>> On 9 Jul 2003 23:11:29 -0700, cupertinojustin[at]yahoo.com (Justin in
>> Cupertino) wrote:
>>
>> >Joe Ragosta <joe[at]ragosta.com> wrote in message
>> >news:<joe-AAC7A4.06410908072003[at]nnrp03.earthlink.net>...
>> >
>> >> I guess '35 dba' is too complicated for you to understand.
>> >
>> >Ok, little Miss Acoustical Engineer!
>> >
>> >Please explain to all of us what, exactly "35 dba" means.
>> >
>> >Now, in Engineering School, I learned that the abbreviation for
>> >Decibel was "dB" not "db".
>> >
>> >Please explain to me what, exactly 35 "dba" is, and the difference
>> >between the "A" sound filter scale and the "C" sound filter scale, and
>> >how do you compare two decibel levels.
>> >
>> >Also, where did you get your engineering degree?
>>
>> A dba is a Database Administrator. It seems the fans are as loud as 35
>> underpaid database monkeys bitching about the quality of the coffee.
>
>Good one. :) ... As the logical answers to the question seemed to have
>petered out by this post, I have a few things to add to the discussion.

Well put.

07-12-2003, 01:39 AM

"flip" <flippo[at]mac.com> wrote in message
news:flippo-222C6A.06423811072003[at]news.central.cox.net...
> In article <ZtqPa.921$gh4.90967157[at]newssvr13.news.prodigy.com>,
> "ed" <news[at]no-atwistedweb-spam.com> wrote:
>
> > "flip" <flippo[at]mac.com> wrote in message
> > news:flippo-487C80.05552210072003[at]news.central.cox.net...
> > > In article <187fab45.0307092211.52152ab[at]posting.google.com>,
> > > cupertinojustin[at]yahoo.com (Justin in Cupertino) wrote:
> > >
> > > > Joe Ragosta <joe[at]ragosta.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:<joe-AAC7A4.06410908072003[at]nnrp03.earthlink.net>...
> > > >
> > > > > I guess '35 dba' is too complicated for you to understand.
> > > >
> > > > Ok, little Miss Acoustical Engineer!
> > > >
> > > > Please explain to all of us what, exactly "35 dba" means.
> > > >
> > > > Now, in Engineering School, I learned that the abbreviation for
> > > > Decibel was "dB" not "db".
> > > >
> > > > Please explain to me what, exactly 35 "dba" is, and the difference
> > > > between the "A" sound filter scale and the "C" sound filter scale,
and
> > > > how do you compare two decibel levels.
> > > >
> > > > Also, where did you get your engineering degree?
> > >
> > > I never claimed to be an engineering expert.
> > >
> > > But I _do_ know enough to know that 35 db is quiet for a computer.
> >
> > it's on the lower end of standard pc noise level, but not "quiet".
> > http://www.yourstores.co.uk/quietpcfaq.htm
> > http://www.techtv.com/screensavers/opinion/story/0,24330,3386461,00.html
> > http://www.directron.com/quietpc.html
> >
> > > Hanson was claiming that there was no real evidence that Apple's
systems
> > > are quite. 35 db sound level is plenty of evidence.
>
> So?
>
> No one ever claimed that this was the quietest computer in the world
> (the iMac would certainly be in the running, though).

and nobody claimed that's what you claimed.

> The fact that other computers are quieter doesn't mean it's not quiet.
> Since you admit that it's at the lower end of standard PC noise level,
> it's quiet.

no, that's not what it means. it means it's on the low end of *standard* pc
noise levels. *quiet* pc's are lower. the jump you're making is like saying
if someone is on the low end of being obese, they're fat. it simply doesn't
follow.

flip

07-12-2003, 04:32 AM

In article <xNIPa.431$oI1.33767674[at]newssvr14.news.prodigy.com>,
"ed" <news[at]no-atwistedweb-spam.com> wrote:

> "flip" <flippo[at]mac.com> wrote in message
> news:flippo-222C6A.06423811072003[at]news.central.cox.net...
> > In article <ZtqPa.921$gh4.90967157[at]newssvr13.news.prodigy.com>,
> > "ed" <news[at]no-atwistedweb-spam.com> wrote:
> >
> > > "flip" <flippo[at]mac.com> wrote in message
> > > news:flippo-487C80.05552210072003[at]news.central.cox.net...
> > > > In article <187fab45.0307092211.52152ab[at]posting.google.com>,
> > > > cupertinojustin[at]yahoo.com (Justin in Cupertino) wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Joe Ragosta <joe[at]ragosta.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:<joe-AAC7A4.06410908072003[at]nnrp03.earthlink.net>...
> > > > >
> > > > > > I guess '35 dba' is too complicated for you to understand.
> > > > >
> > > > > Ok, little Miss Acoustical Engineer!
> > > > >
> > > > > Please explain to all of us what, exactly "35 dba" means.
> > > > >
> > > > > Now, in Engineering School, I learned that the abbreviation for
> > > > > Decibel was "dB" not "db".
> > > > >
> > > > > Please explain to me what, exactly 35 "dba" is, and the difference
> > > > > between the "A" sound filter scale and the "C" sound filter scale,
> and
> > > > > how do you compare two decibel levels.
> > > > >
> > > > > Also, where did you get your engineering degree?
> > > >
> > > > I never claimed to be an engineering expert.
> > > >
> > > > But I _do_ know enough to know that 35 db is quiet for a computer.
> > >
> > > it's on the lower end of standard pc noise level, but not "quiet".
> > > http://www.yourstores.co.uk/quietpcfaq.htm
> > > http://www.techtv.com/screensavers/opinion/story/0,24330,3386461,00.html
> > > http://www.directron.com/quietpc.html
> > >
> > > > Hanson was claiming that there was no real evidence that Apple's
> systems
> > > > are quite. 35 db sound level is plenty of evidence.
> >
> > So?
> >
> > No one ever claimed that this was the quietest computer in the world
> > (the iMac would certainly be in the running, though).
>
> and nobody claimed that's what you claimed.

That is, if you can't read your own post:
> > > it's on the lower end of standard pc noise level, but not "quiet".

>
> > The fact that other computers are quieter doesn't mean it's not quiet.
> > Since you admit that it's at the lower end of standard PC noise level,
> > it's quiet.
>
> no, that's not what it means. it means it's on the low end of *standard* pc
> noise levels. *quiet* pc's are lower. the jump you're making is like saying
> if someone is on the low end of being obese, they're fat. it simply doesn't
> follow.

No, your position doesn't follow. If it's at the low end of the range
for 'normal' PCs, then it can be considered quiet.

That is, for everyone but a flaming idiot.

07-12-2003, 05:06 AM

"flip" <flippo[at]mac.com> wrote in message
news:flippo-85FEA4.22324711072003[at]news.central.cox.net...
> In article <xNIPa.431$oI1.33767674[at]newssvr14.news.prodigy.com>,
> "ed" <news[at]no-atwistedweb-spam.com> wrote:
>
> > "flip" <flippo[at]mac.com> wrote in message
> > news:flippo-222C6A.06423811072003[at]news.central.cox.net...
> > > In article <ZtqPa.921$gh4.90967157[at]newssvr13.news.prodigy.com>,
> > > "ed" <news[at]no-atwistedweb-spam.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > "flip" <flippo[at]mac.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:flippo-487C80.05552210072003[at]news.central.cox.net...
> > > > > In article <187fab45.0307092211.52152ab[at]posting.google.com>,
> > > > > cupertinojustin[at]yahoo.com (Justin in Cupertino) wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Joe Ragosta <joe[at]ragosta.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:<joe-AAC7A4.06410908072003[at]nnrp03.earthlink.net>...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > I guess '35 dba' is too complicated for you to understand.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ok, little Miss Acoustical Engineer!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Please explain to all of us what, exactly "35 dba" means.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Now, in Engineering School, I learned that the abbreviation for
> > > > > > Decibel was "dB" not "db".
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Please explain to me what, exactly 35 "dba" is, and the
difference
> > > > > > between the "A" sound filter scale and the "C" sound filter
scale,
> > and
> > > > > > how do you compare two decibel levels.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Also, where did you get your engineering degree?
> > > > >
> > > > > I never claimed to be an engineering expert.
> > > > >
> > > > > But I _do_ know enough to know that 35 db is quiet for a computer.
> > > >
> > > > it's on the lower end of standard pc noise level, but not "quiet".
> > > > http://www.yourstores.co.uk/quietpcfaq.htm
> > > >
http://www.techtv.com/screensavers/opinion/story/0,24330,3386461,00.html
> > > > http://www.directron.com/quietpc.html
> > > >
> > > > > Hanson was claiming that there was no real evidence that Apple's
> > systems
> > > > > are quite. 35 db sound level is plenty of evidence.
> > >
> > > So?
> > >
> > > No one ever claimed that this was the quietest computer in the world
> > > (the iMac would certainly be in the running, though).
> >
> > and nobody claimed that's what you claimed.
>
> That is, if you can't read your own post:
> > > > it's on the lower end of standard pc noise level, but not "quiet".

you're so dumb flip. "quite" is not the same as "the quitest computer in
the world." i can't wait to see you try to weasle out of this one. =) or
for once, be a man and admit you're wrong. i dare you.

> > > The fact that other computers are quieter doesn't mean it's not quiet.
> > > Since you admit that it's at the lower end of standard PC noise level,
> > > it's quiet.
> >
> > no, that's not what it means. it means it's on the low end of
*standard* pc
> > noise levels. *quiet* pc's are lower. the jump you're making is like
saying
> > if someone is on the low end of being obese, they're fat. it simply
doesn't
> > follow.
>
> No, your position doesn't follow. If it's at the low end of the range
> for 'normal' PCs, then it can be considered quiet.

yeah, but "normal" pc's are LOUD. the low end of loud is- are you ready?-
not as loud as others, but still loud. how does that not follow?

> That is, for everyone but a flaming idiot.

yeah, i might be insulted by that if you hadn't just said that "quiet" is
the same as "the quietest...", but since you did just say that, it should be
obvious to everyone that you're the flaming idiot.